Thursday, November 27, 2014

Consciousness Proves God's Existence

Can I prove God's existence? Throughout history, this has been a task taken up by philosophers from all perspectives. Aquinas tried with his first-mover argument (an interesting argument for sure). Anselm came up with the ontological argument. Ray Comfort came up with the most brilliant philosophical argument of all...the banana argument. The trouble is that these arguments can seem abstract and complex (save for the banana argument). Is there a simple way to deduce God's existence? I think so. By simple, I don't mean that this argument won't stretch your mind-it will. But if I'm successful, you'll be able to see why your very own awareness proves definitively that there is a God (I will argue that this God was revealed in Jesus later). 

Leibniz Law
Who was Leibniz? Well, he's an old dead dude. But he came up with a lot of neat math stuff...you know, Calculus? He was one of the key people in advancing mathematics to the modern place. He was also a kick-butt philosopher. He came up with a very intuitive law called "Leibniz Law" (-_-). It goes like this:

Let A be some entity/property/process. A = whatever placeholder you want it to be.

If A = A, then whatever is true of A will be true of A. Shocked? It goes on.
If A = A, whatever is possibly true of A will be possibly true of A. Shocked yet? Just wait.

Really quick, we need to understand what philosophers mean by "possible worlds". Possible worlds are the way the world could have been, or the way the world may be. They are semantic tools for philosophers to describe possibility. So, for example, if I say "it's possible that in the future, I may buy a dog", I can say that because in my mind, that's a perfectly coherent scenario. That is, there is nothing internally contradictory about the possibility that I may buy a dog sometime in the future. Thus, because this is possible, there is a possible world where I own a dog. Let's make one more application. Suppose I say "it's possible that God exists." That's because I can envision that as a possible scenario in my mind, and there's nothing logically incoherent about that possibility (all attempts to prove God to be logically incoherent have been abject failures). Hence, there is a possible world where God exists. This is the essence of modal logic-the logic of possibilities. So let's apply that Leibniz Law. If A = God, whenever I talk about God, God must be God in all possible worlds (duh). I can't envision any non-God entity and call that God (duh). So here's what that means for Leibniz's Law:

If A = A, then whatever is true of A will be true of A.
If A = A, then whatever is possibly true of A will be possibly true of A.
If A = A, in all possible worlds, A will always be A.

This is intuitive enough. As a side note, if something is true in all possible worlds, it is necessarily true. That is to say that there is no other possible way it could have been. For example, take 1 + 1 = 2. We could have had any symbols we wanted to represent that, but as for the concept itself-one object plus another object equaling a consistent quantity of two objects-there is no other way the world could have been. One object could never have equaled two objects, etc. Back to Leibnuts, suppose you have A and B. If someone claims they are identical, then this is what should follow:

If A = B, whatever is true of A will be true of B
Whatever is possibly true of A will be possibly true of B
In all possible worlds, A = B

So this is where the fun begins :)

The Hard Problem
There is a problem in philosophy of mind called "The hard problem of consciousness." It is puzzling to everyone who studies the mind how subjective experience could arise out of non-conscious chemicals in my skull. There was a philosopher who talked about "the demon". The Demon knows every movement of every single molecule in the universe. However, he cannot predict the arise of consciousness. Why? Because it is far more probable that I should be a meat bag responding to electrical signals then have a subjective experience. This is because non-conscious chemicals (as far as we materialism goes-unless, of course, you're a pantheist/panpsychic) have no subjective experience. You will not find subjective, first person experience in chemicals...and likewise, in the brain chemistry. You will find the correlates to feeling happy, or sad, or whatever, but you will not find the sensations themselves. You will find the neuro-correlates to the perception of color, but you won't find the sensation of perceiving color itself. This is the baffling part. This is why consciousness is one of the most puzzling issues in science.

And don't worry, what's about to come next is not a God-of-the-gaps argument. Let's take a brief detour and look at deductive logic.
Premise 1: A = B
Premise 2: B = C
Conclusion: A = C

The conclusion follows logically and inescapably from the two premises. I will argue that God's existence follows inescapably from consciousness.

Materialism, Dualism, Idealism
There are essentially three metaphysical views: materialism, dualism, and Idealism.. There are far more, but these are the three I want to hone in on, and which I'll wager are the most popular. Materialism is the view that matter is all that exists, and the rearrangements of it. Aka there is no world of God, spirits, etc. There is only the natural world (and by natural, I mean natural minus God...I'll explain why that distinction is important in a different post). Substance dualism is the view that there are two fundamental substances that composer reality: matter (including its rearrangements), and mind (aka the soul-I will refer to the soul/mind as consciousness from this point on. This is what I believe the soul actually is). Idealism is the view that everything that exists exists as mind. Let me flesh this out.

Idealism
As mentioned earlier, you won't find subjective experience in the brain chemistry. You will find correlates to subjective experience-perhaps dopamine or whatever. But you won't find the subjective experience itself. This is important to note. Philosophers call your subjective experience "qualia". Qualia are all subjective sensations you experience-knowledge, sensation of color, sensation of taste, etc. Any subjective sensation you have is qualia. So if everything that exists is fundamentally consciousness, it means that nothing exists outside of perception. If you think about it, we have no evidence that anything exists outside of perception-observing evidence itself requires the existence of perception (since the act of "observing" is an act of perceiving). This is the view I take. Most Christians are probably dualists-they believe that soul and body are fundamentally different. I don't. Though I'm not the only Christian to hold that view. What follows is a proof of idealism.

Why Idealism is Irrefutably true
The relevant points to keep in mind are these:
-Leibniz Law
-Subjective experience vs neurological correlates to subjective experience. What I mean by this is simply that there are certainly correlates to subjective experience in the brain. Thinking really hard results in higher brain activity. However, correlation does not equal causation, and causation doesn't equal identity. Let me discuss those points.

Suppose event X is correlated to event Y. If Y happens after X, that doesn't always mean that X caused Y. If my heater konks out after some dude moves in with me, that doesn't necessarily mean he's the reason the heater konked out. He could be, but he's not necessarily the reason. Also, if X and Y are causally linked, that doesn't imply that X is identical to Y. So if a chemical causes a certain subjective experience, that doesn't imply that that chemical is identical to that experience. If brain activity and consciousness are correlated (which they undeniably are), that doesn't imply that consciousness reduces to reactions going off inside your head.

In fact (and this is where Leibniz Law comes into play), it emphatically isn't. Leibniz had a thought experiment called "Leibniz mill". If you look into your brain, you'll see a lot of chemicals. You'll see electrical impulses. You will not see subjective experience. You will see the correlates to subjective experience. But you will not see the sensations themselves. So ask yourself, is consciousness identical to material processes going off inside your head? If it were, why is it that I cannot do neuroscience by pure introspection? As Sam Harris admits, "there's nothing about introspection (that is, closing your eyes and looking within) that leads you to sense that your subjectivity is at all dependent or even remotely related to voltage changes going off inside your head." If consciousness were identical to these processes, why is it that I do not have access to said electrical signals?

Some at this point will accuse me of committing the fallacy of composition. That is to say that I am taking what applies to the parts, and applying it to the whole. If consciousness is the result of a bunch of neurons going off, then what is true of consciousness won't be true of those individual neurons. However, the key thing to note about the fallacy of composition is that the parts don't just disappear. Take an airplane jet engine. It is true that there are things that are true of the airplane that aren't true of the jet engine. However, the parts of the airplane don't just disappear. The jet is still part of the airplane. However, if you do introspection, you will not find neurons anywhere. You won't find electrical signals. They practically vanish. Again, I am not suggesting that consciousness isn't correlated to brain activity. However, I am saying that it is not reducible to brain activity.

Let me illustrate this point further. Take Mary. Mary is a Color scientist who for whatever reason loves to study color. She lives in the future, where we have the whole brain mapped. She learns all the physical facts there are to know about how brains process color. She spends countless hours learning these facts. What's the catch? She's colorblind.

So though she knows all the physical facts there are to know about color, and about how the brain reacts when it perceives color, she has no idea what people actually see when they see "redness". She knows the correlates to redness, but she doesn't know what red looks like (because she's colorblind). What does that mean? It means that physical facts about the brain aren't identical to mental facts...and thus, there is something true of subjective experience that's not true of the physical facts surrounding that subjective experience. Hence, subjective experience-consciousness-is not reducible to brain chemistry.

David Chalmers, a philosopher of the mind, came up with a neat thought experiment. For all you know, I might be a meat bag reacting to electrical signals, but may have no subjective experience at all. I might say I do, but that's just my wiring causing me to say that. Really, I'm a zombie-what Chalmers calls a "p-zombie" (a philosophical zombie). I look and talk like you people with subjective experience, but I have none. Why does that matter? You can know all the physical facts about my brain, but that wouldn't prove I'm conscious. You cannot know what I'm subjectively experiencing without asking me about my subjective experience. Here's where Leibniz Law and modal logic come into play:

1.) It's possible that p-zombies exist (they are conceivable-I could be one for all you know)
2.) There is a possible world where p-zombies exist. (Modal possibility)
3.) You could learn all the physical facts about the p-zombies' brains, and that wouldn't tell you about there subjective experience (because they have none)
4.) There is a possible world where physical facts don't equal mental facts (since you could learn the physical facts about the p-zombies' brains, and that wouldn't tell you about their subjective experience)
5.) Conclusion: Mental facts and physical facts are not identical (since if they were, they'd be identical in all possible worlds given Leibniz Law. bam.)

Oh wait. There's more.

Let's consider the fact that there are some animals that can perceive ranges of light we cannot. We must use machines to do it-the machines capture the light (infared, for example), and convert it into a color we can see. However, try imagining a color you can't perceive. Oh wait, you can't. My AP Bio teacher was talking about her sister (or someone she knew) who can look at two apparently red sheets of paper. Her sister can perceive the different shades of red present in those paper sheets, whereas to us, it would just look like the same color. You could learn all the facts about how a bird's brain is processing a particular range of light we can't see, and still not know what the bird is seeing. You can learn all the physical facts about the brain of my AP Bio teacher's sister, and still not know what it's like to see those different shades of red. So check this out:

1.) You can learn all physical facts about how bird/sister's brain is processing color, and not know what they're seeing.
2.) There is something true of subjective experience that's not true of mental facts (because you could learn everything there is to learn about the physical facts, and not know the subjective experience of your subject)
Conclusion: Physical facts are not identical to mental facts via Leibniz Law.

Oh, but I'm not done yet. Consider what I said about Leibniz Mill. Nowhere in the brain chemistry will you find the subjective experience itself. You will find chemical correlates, but you won't find the experience itself. Hence:

1.) Brain chemistry exists.
2.) You will not find subjective experience in the brain chemistry (since you won't find the sensations themselves)
Conclusion: There is something true of consciousness (namely, consciousness has the property of subjective experience aka qualia) that's not true of the brain chemistry (you won't find subjective experience itself in the brain chemistry)

One more just to hammer the point home:

It is possible that this world is an idealist world. It's possible that this world emerges from consciousness-namely, what we think of as matter is really just perception. The world exists as perception + the perceiver. Again, we have no evidence that anything exists outside of perception. When we look at the world around us, we must describe the world in terms of consciousness. By this, I mean we must describe the world in terms of some sort of experience-be it color, shape, feeling, knowledge, etc. All of those are descriptions of our own experiences. And all of those are perceived in consciousness (since we're consciously aware of all of them). So let's apply this to brain chemistry. Let a particular neurological state be BS (for brain state). Let consciousness/conscious experience be MS (mental state). If BS = MS, then if the two are identical, they should have ALL things in common. Clearly, however, this is false. It's possible that idealism is true-unless anyone can prove that idealism is logically contradictory, it remains a possibility. Modal logic will be important here. Thus:

1.) It's possible that idealism is true. (it's conceivably true)
2.) There is a possible idealist world (modal logic)
3.) In a possible idealist world, matter does not exist as fundamental.
4.) In a possible idealist world, mind exists as fundamental.
Conclusion: Since there is something true of mind (can exist as fundamental in a possible idealist world) that's not true of matter (can't exist in an idealist world as fundamental), MS ain't BS. 


Remember that identity is a necessary property-that is, if A = A, it will be so in all possible worlds. But clearly, this is not the case.

And here's where I make my case for idealism, and in turn, theism.

Introspective Argument

Premise 1: The Mind exists
Justification: No one who's thinking can deny this.
Premise 2: The properties of the mind are not that which matter has.
Justification: Above arguments.
Conclusion 1: Mind is not reducible to matter-because they are not identical. The properties of the mind don't reduce to physical properties of matter. Hence, by Leibniz Law, they are not identical.
Premise 3: Substance dualism is false.
Justification: This will probably be most controversial among Christians, but I think the materialist actually knows what's up here. If, as the dualist says, there is an immaterial soul interacting with a material body, how should they interact?

Here's what I mean. We know square circles don't exist because those are logically incoherent entities-that is, squares and circles have properties that are directly opposed. They could never be joined together as one shape. How can something that's fundamentally immaterial interact with something material? They would just go through each other. Thus, if the soul is immaterial, how could it ever interact with a material body?

Interaction requires that the two things interacting share a common property. But if the immaterial soul (i.e consciousness) shares a common property with matter, then they can't be two separate substances. Either mind shares a physical property with matter, making mind physical, or matter shares a mental property with mind, making matter actually mental. The common property can't be a combination of matter and mind, because otherwise, you have the same interaction problem arising. Thus, either everything has to be mind, or everything has to be matter. There is no middle ground.

But if we've already established that the mind exists, and mind is not reducible to non-mind, then mind is a non-physical entity. However, if substance dualism is false, then no other substance can exist. Mind wouldn't be able to interact with any other substance...yet it clearly interacts with our bodies. Hence, the conclusion follows:
ALL IS MIND.

Idealism is true. This leads us to accept one of two conclusions.
SolipsismSolipsism is the view that only your mind exists and everything is a projection of it. But there's a strong defeater for solipsism. For one, if this world were really a projection of my mind, the moment I become aware of that possibility, I should be able to manipulate it (ever had a lucid dream?).There's an even stronger defeater though. If this world were a projection of my consciousness, then the external world (that is, the environment external to me) is built of my consciousness. The consciousness that exists "out there" is self-reflexive. That is, it exists with respect to me. However, any consciousness that exists with respect to me (to my own self), must be self-conscious. It is, after all, my consciousness. Then the obvious question arises: how can I be unconscious of my own consciousness? The consciousness in the environment must be self-conscious, since it only exists with respect to the self. So I should be omniscient if solipsism were true. I cannot be unconscious of something that is allegedly part of my own consciousness. That's a contradiction in terms. Hence, we are left with only one other alternative.
Theistic Idealism

One of the obvious questions asked of idealists is this: if the world truly exists as fundamentally mental, why can't I manipulate it by just thinking of it? Easy. This world isn't solely my consciousness. The alternative to solipsism is this: this world exists in a much larger mind, and we're all projections of that mind. This Mind we can call "God". Therefore, the reason I can't manipulate the structure of the world is because God Himself-the much larger Mind-is in control of the structure of the experience. We are His creations-thus, we exist in the environment He Himself has projected with His mind. Given that the premises of the Introspective Argument are self-evidently true, and solipsism is self-evidently false, we are left with no other alternative. Given how consciousness cannot be identical to brain chemistry via Leibniz Law, we are left with the conclusion that there is a much larger Mind that contains our minds. This has exciting implications for theology, philosophy-man, how you live your life in general. I will flesh those out later. This post is meant to be an introduction to idealism, and the reasons that led me to accept it over substance dualism. For anyone who cared enough to read, I hope you got a lot out of this argument. I will link some helpful resources for further investigation. Thanks for reading! :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l1lQMCOguw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70&list=UU5qDet6sa6rODi7t6wfpg8g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=720zEnzgTyM

The first two may be really helpful. For scientific evidence from quantum mechanics, see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRM

39 comments:

  1. You say p1) the mind exists.

    I'd like to know how you define the mind.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Can you pick one, or are they all synonymous: mind=awareness=consciousness? That seems pretty odd to me.

      Delete
    2. In my view (at least how I'm using it in this post) they're the same.

      But if I'm going to be precise...

      Consciousness is the fact of experience that characterize reality. Personhood is a form of localized consciousness-so, it's a center of awareness.

      Mind is the center of awareness's way of perceiving itself and the world. Hence, mind is an essential attribute of personhood.

      Consciousness in general is subjective perception-hence, to say all is mind is to say all is perception (namely, God's, and we exist as a projection of His mind)

      Delete
    3. " to say all is mind is to say all is perception"

      How can everything be perception? Doesn't perception imply something to be perceived? The same applies when it comes to awareness. To say that reality is made up of consciousness and consciousness is awareness but there is nothing else to be aware of makes no sense to me.

      What is god made of?

      Delete
    4. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    5. "How can everything be perception? Doesn't perception imply something to be perceived?"

      Sure-one can perceive their own thoughts.Thus, the world would emerge from God like a great thought (though this is an analogy, as God's mind is infinitely greater than my own)

      God Himself would be fundamentally Consciousness. That would be His essence.

      Delete
    6. Think about it this way. You only know the world via conscious experience. The sensations you have are experienced mentally. They are correlated to brain states, to be sure, but they aren't identical (see Leibniz Law). Your experience of the world-color, taste, smell, knowledge, etc-are all functions of conscious perception.

      Delete
    7. So if everything consists of perception then your thoughts would also consist of perception, which doesn't really make sense. You would be perceiving perception.

      "You only know the world via conscious experience."
      How is that true? Much of what we know is not through conscious perception, but underlying mechanisms of the mind reporting things that may or may not be true to conscious perception. There is a subconscious realm of thought that you seem to be ignoring. How could there be a subconscious if the substance of reality is consciousness?

      "They are correlated to brain states, to be sure, but they aren't identical (see Leibniz Law)"

      Aren't these causes and effects though? My subjective feeling of a brainstate will never be identical to a brain state. That seems rather obvious to me. Causation is by definition strong correlation, unless you have another way of defining causation (see Hume). Does your argument involve the assertion that if we had to induce a given brain state in someone that the normally correlated subjective experience of such a state would not occur?

      "Your experience of the world-color, taste, smell, knowledge, etc-are all functions of conscious perception."

      Most of that is not conscious. Most of it is subconscious!

      Delete
    8. "God Himself would be fundamentally Consciousness. That would be His essence."

      Does this mean that god is not conscious? It seems that you assert that consciousness itself is conscious, which seems like an odd kind of infinite regress.

      Delete
    9. Okay, let me define my terms so there's no confusion here.

      Reality consists of the perceivers + perceptions

      So Consciousness is the fact of "I", or the self. Creatures are localized systems of consciousness (of self-aware selves) that exist as a projection of the Divine Consciousness. So the "objective" world is perceptions-what consciousness perceives. Consciousness itself is self-awareness. So forgive me for not being clear about that. Consciousness, then, has conscious perception. So if Consciousness is A, and conscious perception is B, B is included in the set of things true about A. B is a function, or reduces to A. So all is still consciousness.

      "How is that true? Much of what we know is not through conscious perception, but underlying mechanisms of the mind reporting things that may or may not be true to conscious perception. There is a subconscious realm of thought that you seem to be ignoring. How could there be a subconscious if the substance of reality is consciousness? "

      It's logically impossible to KNOW something without being conscious of it-since knowledge itself is a function of your consciousness (i.e self-awareness). And yes, I'm not denying the brain is the mechanism that provides information for your consciousness to read.

      And of course, the subconscious is easily explained to. It's a SUBset of consciousness. Under dual aspect idealism, your own personal self (your "ego") interacts with the system of consciousness around you. Thus, your "ego" or "I" stores information on the brain, and the brain is the means your "ego" uses to interact with the world around you. Hence, the reason we have a subconscious is because our minds aren't accessing everything stored on the brain all at once (so this is a type of duality between mind and body, but it's not a substance dualism, as everything is still fundamentally the same substance)

      "Does your argument involve the assertion that if we had to induce a given brain state in someone that the normally correlated subjective experience of such a state would not occur?"

      Not at all. I'm not denying that the brain being stimulated leads to a particular mental state. What I'm denying is that your mental states are constituted by your brain states. But if you grant that, materialism is dead for the reasons mentioned in the blog post. That's why the argument still works so long as you even grant that causation does not equal identity.

      And again, the subconscious is a subset of consciousness. I'm going to write a blog post on dual-aspect idealism today, so hopefully I can clear things up in that.

      "Does this mean that god is not conscious? It seems that you assert that consciousness itself is conscious, which seems like an odd kind of infinite regress."

      Hopefully my clarification helped. God is a Consciousness, and that Consciousness has conscious perception. Consciousness IS conscious...that's not an infinite regress though. It's more like saying "Redness" IS "red". It's a tautology-unless I haven't explained my terms. Which I think I have. By saying Consciousness is conscious, I mean that the "self" has conscious perception. Thus reality consists of the Perceiver, perceivers existing within the Perceiver's Mind (i.e God's, mind being the conscious perceptions/thoughts projected/experienced by a consciousness), and perceptions (being impersonal things...which we still experience via...well...experience).

      Delete
    10. "It's logically impossible to KNOW something without being conscious of it"

      That wasn't what I was saying. What I was saying is that the subconscious reports things to our conscious minds which our conscious minds simply accept. It can't rightly be said that the conscious mind is the source of the knowledge. Just for clarity, I don't mean knowledge in an epistemic sense really, but rather the sensation we have in our conscious minds of knowing things, such as knowing you are alive.

      "Not at all. I'm not denying that the brain being stimulated leads to a particular mental state. What I'm denying is that your mental states are constituted by your brain states."

      Hmmm... The way I understand the mind it wouldn't make sense to say that mental states are constituted by brain states either. I find this way of describing it somewhat awkward, which is why I referred to the subjective experience of a state. I see the mind only as a way to describe our subjective experience and the brain as the organ that enables that. The strong causative link makes it seem like a pretty open and shut case to me that the brain is causing the mind. To put it another way: I don't think the mind is made of brain stuff. I don't think the mind is anything except a model to explain our behaviour, feelings and beliefs. In terms of psychology, the mind is what the brain does. We cannot say that flight consists of wings any more than we can say that the mind consists of brain bits. Does that make sense?

      " materialism is dead for the reasons mentioned in the blog post."

      I'm not so sure about that. What I am sure about is that pretty much everyone who has claimed any concept to be dead has usually been proven wrong in the long term. I think it is somewhat arrogant to pronounce a concept dead because you have been convinced of an argument against it. It doesn't matter which position of worldview you hold to, some humility usually goes a long way, and confidence tends towards stagnation. Just my opinion.

      Delete
    11. "What I was saying is that the subconscious reports things to our conscious minds which our conscious minds simply accept. It can't rightly be said that the conscious mind is the source of the knowledge. Just for clarity, I don't mean knowledge in an epistemic sense really, but rather the sensation we have in our conscious minds of knowing things, such as knowing you are alive."

      Fair enough, but this is expected equally on dual-aspect idealism. The mind reads the configuration of neurons on the brain (which is itself, at the fundamental level, mental)

      If you say "the mind is what the brain does" in the same way as "flight is what the wings of a bird does", then there's a problem. Flight is reducible aka completely describable in terms of the motion of the wings. Consciousness, however, is not describable in terms of the motion of brain chemistry/electricity/etc. If you define "mind" as "what the brain does", then through Leibniz Law, whatever is true of mind should be true of "what the brain does". But this is clearly not the case, as you won't find subjective experience anywhere in the motion of chemicals. You'll find correlates, but these aren't the same things.

      Now, as to causality-I think we're using the term differently. You're using it in the sense that mind cannot exist without matter, I'm using it in the sense that mind experiences mental states through the brain. I'm in a college-level stats class, and one of the first things you learn is that even if two variables have a high degree of association (even .99!), then that still doesn't prove causality. In order to prove causality, you have to prove that event X cannot exist apart from event Y. If you try to do that by saying "well matter's been around a lot longer than mind", that's begging the question, as on idealism, all of reality exists fundamentally as consciousness.

      I'll be less snarky, haha. Though when I hear Dennett try to claim that once we learn more about the brain we'll find out consciousness is an illusion, I kind of get riled (since an illusion is itself a conscious experience...). Though you weren't making that argument-so you were fine.

      Delete
    12. " If you define "mind" as "what the brain does", then through Leibniz Law, whatever is true of mind should be true of "what the brain does". "

      You misunderstand. The mind is a model for what the brain does. There is no platonic mind that exists in any way. So the way I understand it, the mind is not an existing entity, it is just a pointer to behaviour, perception, beliefs and memories, which is what the brain enables. Leibniz's law does not apply, because they are not identical. The brain is an organ and the mind is a concept to describe it's behaviour.

      "you won't find subjective experience anywhere in the motion of chemicals."

      This is a confusion between subjective experience and the brain. You are effectively fooled by your intuitive subjective experience to look for something more than a brain. It's just an act of incredulity. That does not mean you are wrong, but subjective experience is inadmissible as evidence as far as I am concerned.

      "You're using it in the sense that mind cannot exist without matter"

      No. I am saying that the mind cannot exist without the brain, and the strong correlation suggest that the brain causes the mind. I don't know whatever reality is made of and I am not arrogant enough to proclaim that I do, but I don't think that intuitions about the mind and brain being disconnected tell us anything about the raw constituents of reality.

      "If you try to do that by saying "well matter's been around a lot longer than mind", that's begging the question"
      I don't appreciate bad arguments being made on my behalf or attempted pre empting of what I might say. Just pay attention to our actual discussion. That is enough.

      "Though when I hear Dennett try to claim..."
      I don't care. This is not relevant to our discussion. It just seems like an attempt to reinforce your confidence by addressing a person and argument that are not present here.

      Delete
    13. Saying "mind" is just a concept or a model for what the brain does, then you're flat out denying the datum of consciousness. To say "it's in admissible as evidence" is baffling actually. Subjective experience clearly exists, and thus is not just a concept. To say "consciousness" is just a concept is actually just baffling, because a concept is itself a function of consciousness. Thus, subjective experience cannot be explained away by saying "it needs no explanation outside of the brain." It exists, and thus needs such an explanation. Since it's not found in the brain chemistry, it needs an explanation outside of it.


      Yeah, I was using "matter" to denote the brain since the brain is matter. As I've said, strong correlation does not entail causality, as a statistician could tell you. What does entail causality is if event X cannot exist without prior event Y. Since strong correlation doesn't equal causality, there's no reason to think mind needs the brain

      Delete
    14. "you're flat out denying the datum of consciousness. "

      Only in the sense that you understand it. Consciousness is not reducible to physical properties because it isn't a physical object. It is however reducible to mental subconscious constituents. Claiming that reality consists of consciousness therefore would result in the following problems:

      1) Since consciousness is mostly the result of subconscious processes consciousness is reducible and therefore not fundamental.
      2) The subconscious consisting of consciousness is a contradiction and therefore false.

      Consciousness does not seem to be a "thing" in any meaningful sense. As far as we know it is a mental construct built from memory and association. This is where your misunderstanding lies. You seem to want to believe that mind and consciousness exist somewhere out there in an ideal form (god). The concept of the mind is a model we use to study psychology, whether we need to construct a predictive framework for what another person will probably do, or whether we are engaging in experiments for psychology neither of those things imply some eternally existing consciousness hoobajoob. It is merely useful for understanding how we think.

      I'm not saying that idealism is false or even that god does not exist, merely that this ontological arrangement you propose is dubious given our knowledge of the construction of consciousness and the fact that consciousness itself is just a conceptual grouping of other reducible mental properties.

      "To say "consciousness" is just a concept is actually just baffling, because a concept is itself a function of consciousness. "

      That statement suggests to me that your idea of consciousness is not adequately fleshed out. Nowhere in your definition (Consciousness is the fact of experience that characterize reality) does that even seem coherent to me. A concept is a just an imperfect model to simplify understanding. You don't experience every detail of my existence, yet you understand me on some level because you have constructed a concept of me based on the limited input you have. You didn't do this consciously, your subconscious did most of the work for you. This implies that you are once again conflating conscious operation with subconscious operation.

      Delete
    15. " It is however reducible to mental subconscious constituents."

      What do you mean by "mental subconscious constitutents"? If you mean something physical, then the problems implied by Leibniz Law follow.

      "1) Since consciousness is mostly the result of subconscious processes consciousness is reducible and therefore not fundamental.
      2) The subconscious consisting of consciousness is a contradiction and therefore false. "

      Again, that begs the question. On idealism, the subconscious processes themselves (I take it you mean by this the physical processes) are mental.

      "You seem to want to believe that mind and consciousness exist somewhere out there in an ideal form (god). The concept of the mind is a model we use to study psychology, whether we need to construct a predictive framework for what another person will probably do, or whether we are engaging in experiments for psychology neither of those things imply some eternally existing consciousness hoobajoob. It is merely useful for understanding how we think."

      Okay, subjectivity clearly exists. It cannot be explained away by saying "it's just a concept" when it's clearly not. The fact that we cannot find subjectivity itself (not talking about the correlates) in the brain chemistry does indeed imply it exists in a platonic realm.

      "That statement suggests to me that your idea of consciousness is not adequately fleshed out. Nowhere in your definition (Consciousness is the fact of experience that characterize reality) does that even seem coherent to me."

      What I meant there is subjectivity. Reality is fundamentally consciousness because it's a projection of God's subjectivity on this view.

      "You didn't do this consciously, your subconscious did most of the work for you. This implies that you are once again conflating conscious operation with subconscious operation."

      And again, that's question begging because on idealism, subconscious operations are in reality fundamentally mental.

      Delete
    16. "What do you mean by "mental subconscious constitutents"?"

      Let me give an example that illustrates what I mean. You may think that you are consciously perceiving a moment in time, but what is actually happening is that different memories are being constructed into a coherent perception of a moment. You don't for example really see things in your peripheral vision, although your perception would have you believe otherwise. A set of subconscious mental systems are building your coherent perception of reality (whatever that reality may consist of) at this moment.

      "I take it you mean by this the physical processes"

      If you make such assumptions and then accuse me of committing fallacies under those assumptions I will simply end the discussion. Once again, please don't make arguments on my behalf. I would suggest that you rather ask for clarification, because you are wasting your time addressing arguments I don't make.

      "The fact that we cannot find subjectivity itself (not talking about the correlates) in the brain chemistry"

      You can't find flight in a wing. So what? What would it look like to find something like that? It really seems like some nonsensical comparison of things that cannot be compared in actuality.

      "Reality is fundamentally consciousness because it's a projection of God's subjectivity on this view. "

      I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense to me. What puzzles me furthermore is that this view of god is not mentioned once in the holy book, so how can you make such confident pronouncements on how this god supposedly functions. You seem to think not only that you know what reality is made of, but also how god works. Even for a christian that seems like an arrogant position to take on the matter.

      "subconscious operations are in reality fundamentally mental"

      You said that " to say all is mind is to say all is perception", but I am telling you that what you perceive is a result of your subconscious. What you then do is say that all is conscious perception but then you say that subconscious is also consciousness, which is contradictory. You are saying that subconscious=consciousness. By that Leibniz thingy that would mean you are wrong. It also implies a contradiction, because if the constituents of consciousness are subconscious experiences that would imply that you say that subconscious consists of consciousness. Nothing physical is or needs to be implied to point this out.

      Here is my point: consciousness is reducible. Anything that is reducible is not fundamental. Therefore consciousness cannot be fundamental.

      Delete
    17. Don't mean to be rude, but that doesn't make sense. " You may think that you are consciously perceiving a moment in time, but what is actually happening is that different memories are being constructed into a coherent perception of a moment. You don't for example really see things in your peripheral vision, although your perception would have you believe otherwise."

      Sight is a form of perception. Hence, you are saying that I'm not really perceiving stuff out of my peripherals, even though my perception makes me thing otherwise. But again, this seems to be denying the data. So I really AM perceiving a moment in time. Saying that my perception is a bunch of memories being strung together doesn't escape the argument because again, memories ARE a function of consciousness.

      What I meant is that flight is reducible (you seem to argue consciousness is). So everything that is true of flight is true of the motion of the wings/processes that cause flight. It's completely describable in terms of the physical mechanism. Yet my subjective experience is not-hence the bat argument, Mary the color scientist, Leibniz mill, etc.

      "Even for a Christian". Cute. And I guess if I assumed all atheists were arrogant you'd be okay with that?

      I think reason is a perfectly legitimate (and necessary) tool to learn about God. It perfectly coheres with the Bible-in fact makes sense of it. Idealism doesn't contradict Scripture. Rather, Scripture affirms that all things hold together in God, that God transcends creation yet fills it, that He created the world out of no pre-existing matter. Idealism explains how these things can be true.

      Why is saying the subconscious is consciousness contradictory? If by subconscious you mean something physical (which I'm assuming you do because you said consciousness is reducible-otherwise correct me), then again, that's begging the question. If our subconscious is the functions of the brain that string together memories, then yes, on idealism that exists as a projection (akin to a thought) in the mind of God. So while it's not necessarily my consciousness, it's still consciousness (since again, all created reality is a projection of His mind).

      Additionally, it avoids Leibniz law by positing the subconscious as a subset of consciousness. Hence, everything that is true of it would be true of consciousness, but not the other way around. A would be contained in B.

      So yes, if consciousness were reducible it wouldn't be. But it seems to me you haven't offered any viable reasons to defend any sort of reductionism.

      Delete
    18. "Hence, you are saying that I'm not really perceiving stuff out of my peripherals, even though my perception makes me thing otherwise. "

      Yes. And I am not saying that. This can be demonstrated. You might perceive colour out of your far peripheral vision but actually you are not. The colour perception there is just a function of memory. What actually happens with visual perception is that your eyes dart around creating an image. So you are not perceiving a snapshot, even though it may seem that way. Just a slight correction. You do see with your peripheral vision, but your your peripheral vision is actually very poor. Your subconscious constructs a coherent image of your field of view out of the available data.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvgRBmbFuZ4

      "memories ARE a function of consciousness"

      That simply isn't true, and I'm not sure what kind of support you can offer for this assertion. Are you conscious of memories entering your mind?

      "If by subconscious you mean something physical"

      That is not a necessary aspect to my position. It doesn't matter to me what the universe is made of, only how it apparently works. All this stuff could be happening in the mind of a contemplative superdimensional buddha for all I care, but that is not the point. The point is that the arguments you use to arrive at your position don't seem to hold up and the construction of your position seems confused.

      "And I guess if I assumed all atheists were arrogant you'd be okay with that?"
      That's not the point. The point is that christians who claim to know that god exists are arrogant, as are atheists that claim the opposite. Claiming to know the answers to questions you can't really know the answers to is arrogant. Claiming to know absolute truths is a gross overestimation of the powers of human reason.

      "which I'm assuming you do"

      I would stop assuming if I was you, since your track record for assumptions about my position have been rather dismal thus far.

      "If our subconscious is the functions of the brain that string together memories, then yes, on idealism that exists as a projection (akin to a thought) in the mind of God. So while it's not necessarily my consciousness, it's still consciousness (since again, all created reality is a projection of His mind). "

      There is your counterpoint, but I don't see how you could support that. It is still contradictory to state that the subconscious is conscious, as the subconscious refers to a subset of consciousness. How could something be below something if it is made of that? It would be like saying a tire is made of wheel. For your position to be coherent it would seem that you would need to reject the subconscious. What I think is problematic for this position is that the subconscious is very much driven by heuristics and produces many false conclusions as a result, therefore if it was an extension of the mind of god that would be very strange. Since the consciousness of god would represent the subconscious of humans, that would have seriously negative effects on libertarian free will, because the subconscious elements of the mind have a large degree of influence on conscious decisions. When those decisions are bad, it wouldn't be due to the heuristic failures of the subconscious, but due to the deception of god. I find this unlikely and highly problematic for this theory of mind.

      " But it seems to me you haven't offered any viable reasons to defend any sort of reductionism."
      I have. If the subconscious exists as a collection of mechanisms reporting conscious events then it supports my position. The fact that you think you see things in your peripheral vision when you don't is an example of a subconscious mechanism constructing conscious experience. Your only reply to this position seems to be denial at this point.

      Delete
    19. "This can be demonstrated. You might perceive colour out of your far peripheral vision but actually you are not. The colour perception there is just a function of memory. What actually happens with visual perception is that your eyes dart around creating an image. So you are not perceiving a snapshot, even though it may seem that way. Just a slight correction. You do see with your peripheral vision, but your your peripheral vision is actually very poor. Your subconscious constructs a coherent image of your field of view out of the available data."

      What are you defining as subconscious? Because as far as I could tell, even though my visual field is flawed, I was still perceiving. I still had perception. The fact remains that I still have perception, and that perception isn't reducible. Even if you argue it's constructed from memories, I experience stuff in the "now" as it were. I have a constant stream of experience-temporal points that come into existence and fade away moment by moment.

      "That simply isn't true, and I'm not sure what kind of support you can offer for this assertion. Are you conscious of memories entering your mind?"

      Of memories that enter my mind-absolutely. I know when memories are present to my mind and such-to say otherwise would be schizophrenia.

      "That is not a necessary aspect to my position."

      This is ironic. You argue that this isn't necessary to your position, when in fact you admit to defending reductionism (which is physicalism). Hence I have not misrepresented your position-only stated the logical conclusion. If reductionism is true, then the sub conscious would in fact reduce to physical stuff, as would consciousness.

      "How could something be below something if it is made of that? It would be like saying a tire is made of wheel. "

      No it's not, because "tire" and "wheel" aren't substances. A tire is a type of wheel. So a more proper analogy would be to say that the subconscious is a type of consciousness.

      "Since the consciousness of god would represent the subconscious of humans, that would have seriously negative effects on libertarian free will, because the subconscious elements of the mind have a large degree of influence on conscious decisions"

      That's a flat out misrepresentation, and evidences a failure to interact with my position. I've said that it's contained in the consciousness of God-it's a projection. Not ONCE have I ever said that God is causing us to think certain things-rather the "virtual" system as it were is sustained by His mind. So our bodies would be sustained by God. Hence, all would still be fundamentally consciousness, even though God's not causally producing all events. He's sustaining the environment.

      "The fact that you think you see things in your peripheral vision when you don't is an example of a subconscious mechanism constructing conscious experience. Your only reply to this position seems to be denial at this point."

      Yes, it is denial because my own experience testifies against it. That brain processes are involved in constructing memories doesn't deny the reality of the present and temporal "now" I perceive. So again, to say I just "think" I see things in my peripheral when I don't is, ironically, denial of the data on your part. I do indeed see things out of my peripherals-even if my peripherals are flawed.

      By definition, "memories" are events experienced that have now passed. Thus, things come into being and fade away as memories moment by moment. That doesn't deny that there is such a thing as a present "now". So memories would perhaps aid in constructing the stream of consciousness-but the present perception is real, and to say otherwise or to say we just "think" we're perceiving something when we're not seems to be utterly implausible to say the least.

      Delete
    20. I see this won't really get anywhere. So thanks for the discussion, but I'm going to abandon it now. I'll leave some concluding remarks.

      Right, so I've tried to understand your position and quite honestly I've been scratching my head multiple times. The idea of the subconscious mind being made of consciousness seems to be a bizarre concept, and despite trying to figure it out, it is a really tough mental barrier to understanding your position. I have a somewhat introductory knowledge of ontological positions, and to be honest I don't really care much for them. The only reason I felt it necessary to address your position is that it seems to contradict the things I know about the mind. As far as I understand the mind, it seems to be just a concept that we point to in order to study the behaviour and personality of humans (including our own), whether we do that formally via psychology or informally via our own theory of mind. It is no surprise to me that most people who are ignorant of cognitive sciences find this hard to understand or accept (and I am not implying that you are ignorant), and I run into trouble with self proclaimed materialists as well as theists on this matter.

      What I learned when I delved into human psychology and neurobiology even a little is that our own conceptions of what we are, are deeply flawed. Each fact slowly chips away at the idea that we are experiencing a moment of awareness, that we are a "self", that we have some sort of transcendent free will, and that consciousness can be anything other than the construction of a subconscious mind. You can meet the facts with as strong denial as it pleases you, but they caught up with me big time. I can no longer entertain the naive idea that I can be an expert in my own mind just because I seem to experience it. It's hard, but that notion must be rejected, or the rejection of it must at least be entertained in order to understand criticisms.

      I've cancelled my subscription to these comments, so I won't be receiving any more notifications of reply. I need to get on with other stuff and other discussions. Thanks for your time however and for considering my ideas.

      Delete
    21. Thank you for the discussion as well.

      " The idea of the subconscious mind being made of consciousness seems to be a bizarre concept, and despite trying to figure it out, it is a really tough mental barrier to understanding your position. I have a somewhat introductory knowledge of ontological positions, and to be honest I don't really care much for them."

      As I've said, it all depends on how you're defining the subconscious. I think it's a type of consciousness-a mode of it.

      "What I learned when I delved into human psychology and neurobiology even a little is that our own conceptions of what we are, are deeply flawed. Each fact slowly chips away at the idea that we are experiencing a moment of awareness, that we are a "self", that we have some sort of transcendent free will, and that consciousness can be anything other than the construction of a subconscious mind."

      Again, the trouble still remains that this just seems to deny the data. So these aren't facts-rather, I do think these notions are simply ways to try to escape the obvious. That I am a self, and that I experience stuff is something I am 100% sure of-to say otherwise seems to me schizophrenic (I'm not suggesting you are, I'm simply saying that such a position is just a flat out denial of the data of subjective experience).

      That's not to say I completely know my own self-in fact, as a Christian, I think the human heart outside of Christ is deceitful above all things. Rather, the data of subjective experience in and of itself is enough to extrapolate idealism from. I appreciate the interaction.

      Delete
  2. I think your argument is invalidated by the range of minds existing, from computer minds, to insect minds, lizard and bird minds, mammal minds, whale, dolphin, great ape and human minds.

    And it's also invalidated by humans with damaged mind, and born without brains, and by eyes that process visual information for the brain's mind.

    Also your argument is invalidated by the fact that there were no minds on Earth before multicellularity was invented by life.

    Also we can manipulate the world with our minds. Your post and the replies above demonstrate this. Plus have you never crafted something, like with even a blog post like this one?

    Also evolution and genetics falsify your claim that "We are His creations" immediately. Consider, brain dead babies are the results of naturalistic causes. In your argument, brain dead babies are a creation of your god, which means your god is evil and wicked, sent to harm women and families. I'm sure you'd disagree with that.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "I think your argument is invalidated by the range of minds existing, from computer minds, to insect minds, lizard and bird minds, mammal minds, whale, dolphin, great ape and human minds."

      First of all, computer's don't have minds. Information processing isn't identical to the existence of the mind itself-that's kind of the whole point of Searle's Chinese room. Second, animal minds actually establish the argument-hence why I referred to Nagel's bat argument. Again, the contention of idealism is that the only fundamental substance is mental.

      "And it's also invalidated by humans with damaged mind, and born without brains, and by eyes that process visual information for the brain's mind."

      That's perfectly compatible with idealism-in fact that's expected. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70

      "Also your argument is invalidated by the fact that there were no minds on Earth before multicellularity was invented by life."

      That's begging the question, and thus circular reasoning. My contention is that all is mind-and thus, what we call "the physical world" is a projection of consciousness.

      "Also we can manipulate the world with our minds. Your post and the replies above demonstrate this. Plus have you never crafted something, like with even a blog post like this one?"

      What I meant there was the structure of the world. So we can't move objects without the medium of the body. We can't just bend spoons and such. But I agree-in fact, this is expected on idealism, and flat out contradicted my materialism.

      "Also evolution and genetics falsify your claim that "We are His creations" immediately. Consider, brain dead babies are the results of naturalistic causes. In your argument, brain dead babies are a creation of your god, which means your god is evil and wicked, sent to harm women and families. I'm sure you'd disagree with that."

      Oh boy. I question whether you've actually taken time to understand the argument. First of all, I wasn't arguing for the Christian God as yet. Secondly, I would address this to as a consequence of the Fall. When Adam sinned, corruption entered into the creation and distorted God's good design-which means brain dead babies weren't supposed to be a part of it. In any case, if you're claiming that God couldn't have a good reason to permit the existence of brain dead babies into the world, and permit distortions of His design, then you have to justify your premise. Otherwise, one could assert random premises all the day long and pretend their true until disproven.

      And no one can prove that God couldn't have good reasons. One event could effect millions down the road of time, so as to produce a disproportionate amount of good.

      Delete
    2. Basically you're denying science. That's a really bad idea.

      Delete
    3. Wow Angela, don't interact with any of my points, and claim that the philosophy of naturalism is somehow science. This is exactly what fundamentalism looks like.

      Delete
    4. Please keep on denying science and showing you're irrational. Computers and other animals do have minds. Adam and Eve and original sin are mythical, fictional and imaginary and result in huge evils. Arguing for them shows you as irrational.

      Delete
  3. "computer's don't have minds. "

    Contradicted by the computer running an emulation of a worm's mind and operating a robot.

    Yes, computers have "minds" of a sort, and with appropriate software form primitive minds.

    "what we call "the physical world" is a projection of consciousness."

    Which is false. People do agree on the world and they're not aspects of your mind.

    Also we note that physical substances do alter the perception of the mind. Diseases, like brain eating bugs eat brains and damage/destroy minds. Drugs like alcohol, alter the mind by adjusting chemistry and eventually with enough suppress the conscious mind. Brain operations also change the mind, for example separating a person's brain into two halves or the even older operation of destroying the frontal lobes. Do I need to keep relating how substances change the mind?

    " I would address this to as a consequence of the Fall. "

    Adam and Eve and the Fall are just myth. They're immediately contradicted by many sciences and even a religion (one that's massively older than your religion.

    So got any evidence of your god? Apparently not, as the myth of Adam and Eve (and thus your god) is already established by facts as a myth.

    So why bother with fan fiction for the Abrahamic God? I can tell already, it's poor fiction.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Contradicted by the computer running an emulation of a worm's mind and operating a robot."

      No, again, because the robot's not conscious. It's just a stream of code-Searle proves that here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yJY2POA5E8

      "People do agree on the world and they're not aspects of your mind."

      Which means you didn't understand the argument.

      "Also we note that physical substances do alter the perception of the mind. Diseases, like brain eating bugs eat brains and damage/destroy minds. Drugs like alcohol, alter the mind by adjusting chemistry and eventually with enough suppress the conscious mind. Brain operations also change the mind, for example separating a person's brain into two halves or the even older operation of destroying the frontal lobes. Do I need to keep relating how substances change the mind?"

      Which isn't a problem for idealism-actually it makes perfect sense. The mind reads the configuration of neurons on the brain. Hence, when the brain is damaged, the information the mind processes is damaged. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70

      "Adam and Eve and the Fall are just myth. They're immediately contradicted by many sciences and even a religion (one that's massively older than your religion."

      No, they're not contradicted by science. "I guess I appreciate how, for many conservative Christians, a historical Adam and Eve is very, very important. I think one of the things that have been discussed here is how, in Corinthians and Romans, Paul's referent back to Adam and Eve is almost necessary as a historical figure given the way that he is describing them.
      Something that has been helpful to me is that I don't think that a historical Adam and Eve is problematic from a Biblical historical context. I think Adam and Eve as the first humans is what the problem is. You could say, and I think we've had some pastors say, that God does this special creation thing of Adam and Eve in the context of the evolutionary epic. God could do that, and that's fine.
      I don't think you have to say that. I think you could also say that God specially selects Adam and Eve for this covenant relationship, much as he did with Abraham, say, in the Biblical epic, and so Adam and Eve become representative of the kind of relationship that God intends to have with all people.
      That is a point of possible convergence that allows those who are very worried about a historical Adam and Eve to breathe easier, and those who are very concerned about integrity with DNA findings and evolutionary science to also breathe a bit easier because at least there's a possibility of hermeneutics. The Bible doesn't give us much more, but that is one way to look at it." -Daniel Harrell

      "So why bother with fan fiction for the Abrahamic God? I can tell already, it's poor fiction."

      Cute. Not at all intelligent though.

      Delete
    2. "Yes, computers have "minds" of a sort, and with appropriate software form primitive minds."

      You've redefined the term mind to mean something other than consciousness, which is how I'm using it. Searle demonstrates that syntax isn't identical to consciousness through his Chinese Room argument.

      Delete
    3. "No, again, because the robot's not conscious."

      Neither was the worm. Yet, they both have minds which operate bodies and computer mind operates robot body like worm mind operates worm body. Have a look for yourself:

      http://www.iflscience.com/technology/worms-mind-robot-body

      "No, they're not contradicted by science."

      They [Adam and Eve and God] are contradicted by science and by other religions. What you're doing is re-defining Adam and Eve and God to be your creations. Why not discard God, Adam and Eve? Instead of re-defining and re-modelling them?

      As for minds, note that you're now eliminating insect minds, because they're not "conscious" (what ever that means).

      Delete
    4. Again, that article was begging the question. It didn't even attempt to prove that the mechanical worm had subjective experience-it just assumed it. As i said, John Searle has debunked this already.

      "
      They [Adam and Eve and God] are contradicted by science and by other religions. What you're doing is re-defining Adam and Eve and God to be your creations. Why not discard God, Adam and Eve? Instead of re-defining and re-modelling them?"

      I'm not redefining them...? I believe they were historical characters, and I believe what the Bible says about them. I think what the Bible says is harmonious with science, because all the Genesis narrative requires is that humans share common ancestry in a primal pair (Adam and Eve) of humans. Given mitochondrial Eve or chromosomal Adam, that's not impossible. Yes, I know they lived at different times-I'm not suggest THEY'RE Adam and Eve. Rather, chromosomal Adam clearly had a mate (hence why his genes were passed on). It's not crazy to think we all share common ancestry in a pair designated by God as Adam and Eve.

      I never said insects weren't conscious. In fact, I think animals most likely are. What I'm saying is that consciousness is not reducible because it's not completely describable in terms of the matter that supposedly constitutes it.

      Delete
    5. Your reply basically denies science, in favour of your ignorance. You've become a science denialist crackpot.

      Delete
    6. Interestingly, I just saw this. I would reply with something snarky like "if ad-hominems were good argument, you got me good". But I won't. Let me just say that it's not disputed that strong AI hasn't yet been invented. In fact, Searle's Chinese Room argument has provided a decisive defeater (syntax doesn't equal consciousness, and therefore by Leibniz law strong AI can't exist since consciousness can't be emergent from syntax)

      Delete
    7. Oh and Angela, if you're unfamiliar with Searle's argument, then do yourself a favor and educate yourself: http://www.iep.utm.edu/chineser/

      Delete
    8. I am familiar with it. Essentially it fails when humans learn Chinese and learn it well enough to seem intelligent and competent in it.

      By the way, Adam and Eve are fictional, imaginary and incoherent. Your god is too. Evolution is a fact. Consciousness is not irreducible, because we have dogs, children, and other animals with lesser degrees of consciousness.
      We also have robots with a degree of consciousness as well.

      Delete
  4. In the first paragraph under Idealism, you claim that "you won't find subjective experience in the brain chemistry." However, a simple Google search of "subjective experience in brain chemistry" will pull up this:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=subjective+experience+brain+chemistry&oq=subjective+experience+brain+chemistry&aqs=chrome..69i57.5175j0j1&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
    The question of subjective experiences as it relates to our physical brains is not an uncommon question. Thus, it is unsurprising that there is such a large body of research on this topic. These articles and papers seem to refute the fact that subjective experience is disconnected from a physical reality as you claim. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point, so could you elaborate?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, what I mean by that is that you won't find the experience itself. I'm not denying that brain chemistry and consciousness are correlated-they certainly are. However, correlation doesn't at all equal identity, so it's fallacious to say "because Brain State X and Mental State Y are correlated, therefore Y reduces to X". The conclusion doesn't follow.

      That's all you need to grant for this argument to work. So I don't claim it's disconnected from physical reality. I'm simply claiming that consciousness doesn't reduce to the brain. Idealism eliminates the mind-body problem by positing monism.

      Delete